Comments on: Romans 9, the Awful and Terrible God, and Communion http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/ Fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man - Ecclesiastes 12:13 Sat, 28 Aug 2010 01:42:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: gymbrall http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/comment-page-1/#comment-1002 gymbrall Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:54:22 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/#comment-1002 Larry, I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. I almost don't know where to start. You seem very confused about what Romans 9 is actually saying. I would encourage you to sit down and read the chapter and read Paul's questions and his arguments. Paul does a very methodical walkthrough regarding the concept of election, at each point building on the idea from the previous section. When he says, "Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated" (notice the division into 2 groups) and then in the same chapter as he makes his case he talks about vessels unto wrath and vessels unto honor (again 2 groups) he is building on the same argument. This is not <b>just</b> about Jacob being chosen to be the line through which Christ came, it is also very much about how God has chosen those who will bear his name. But you have to understand something else, the point of this is not that we get to determine who God has chosen, the point of it is that we understand that God is choosing a people. It is that we focus on Him as the One who has made all things come to pass. Larry,
I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. I almost don’t know where to start. You seem very confused about what Romans 9 is actually saying. I would encourage you to sit down and read the chapter and read Paul’s questions and his arguments. Paul does a very methodical walkthrough regarding the concept of election, at each point building on the idea from the previous section. When he says, “Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated” (notice the division into 2 groups) and then in the same chapter as he makes his case he talks about vessels unto wrath and vessels unto honor (again 2 groups) he is building on the same argument. This is not just about Jacob being chosen to be the line through which Christ came, it is also very much about how God has chosen those who will bear his name.

But you have to understand something else, the point of this is not that we get to determine who God has chosen, the point of it is that we understand that God is choosing a people. It is that we focus on Him as the One who has made all things come to pass.

]]> By: Larry Larson http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/comment-page-1/#comment-1000 Larry Larson Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:53:50 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/#comment-1000 It grieves me to see so many take Romans 9 out of context. Jacob (Israel) I loved, Esau I hated is not about personal election to salvation, but service. Jacob AKA: Israel was chosen to serve God, and bring forth the Messiah. Romans 9-11 is about Israel. Romans 9 Israel's Past Romans 10 Israel's furure Romans 11 Israel's furure. OUR salvation is described in Romans 4.....based on Faith. The foundation of faith was placed first and foremost with Cain and Abel. Faith in the coming redeemer who would die and rise again for our sin. Genesis 3:15. That has not changed. Abraham believed God and was counted/imputed/reckoned Righteous with God. This is what Justification is. Calvinism does not understand the principles of Justification. Justification is not our New Birth. Abraham was not Born Again first to believe, or even born again after he believed. In the OT, those who placed their faith in Jesus Christ had Counted/Reckoned/Imputed Righteousness. ONLY those who are of the Faith of Abraham are Abraham's true spiritual seed. Not many seeds, but ONE...Jesus Christ is the seed. The Promise is the Promise of the Holy Spirit, not the promise of Election. The True Elect according to Grace are those who refuse to bend the knee to Baal or Calvin or Joseph Smith or whoever. The Awful truth of Romans 9 is the many Calvinists who will be lost in some silly idea THEY are Jacob: AKA Israel!!! It grieves me to see so many take Romans 9 out of context. Jacob (Israel) I loved, Esau I hated is not about personal election to salvation, but service. Jacob AKA: Israel was chosen to serve God, and bring forth the Messiah.

Romans 9-11 is about Israel.
Romans 9 Israel’s Past
Romans 10 Israel’s furure
Romans 11 Israel’s furure.

OUR salvation is described in Romans 4…..based on Faith. The foundation of faith was placed first and foremost with Cain and Abel. Faith in the coming redeemer who would die and rise again for our sin. Genesis 3:15. That has not changed. Abraham believed God and was counted/imputed/reckoned Righteous with God. This is what Justification is. Calvinism does not understand the principles of Justification. Justification is not our New Birth. Abraham was not Born Again first to believe, or even born again after he believed.

In the OT, those who placed their faith in Jesus Christ had Counted/Reckoned/Imputed Righteousness.

ONLY those who are of the Faith of Abraham are Abraham’s true spiritual seed. Not many seeds, but ONE…Jesus Christ is the seed. The Promise is the Promise of the Holy Spirit, not the promise of Election. The True Elect according to Grace are those who refuse to bend the knee to Baal or Calvin or Joseph Smith or whoever.

The Awful truth of Romans 9 is the many Calvinists who will be lost in some silly idea THEY are Jacob: AKA Israel!!!

]]> By: R. Sherman http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/comment-page-1/#comment-967 R. Sherman Sun, 23 Mar 2008 16:03:52 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/#comment-967 Just popping in to wish you and yours a joyous Easter. Cheers. Just popping in to wish you and yours a joyous Easter.

Cheers.

]]> By: Charles http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/comment-page-1/#comment-964 Charles Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:21:20 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/#comment-964 Ariel, I think it would be fun to write a series of post and to always, always, always, find a way to shoehorn Lewis in. Even if you had to resort to: "it's like chocolate ice cream, which was Lewis' favorite by the way (source: imagination)" Thanks for the read. Now go revise your thinkin' ;) Charles Ariel,
I think it would be fun to write a series of post and to always, always, always, find a way to shoehorn Lewis in. Even if you had to resort to: “it’s like chocolate ice cream, which was Lewis’ favorite by the way (source: imagination)”

Thanks for the read. Now go revise your thinkin’ ;)

Charles

]]> By: Charles http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/comment-page-1/#comment-966 Charles Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:08:37 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/#comment-966 Randall, Thanks for the thoughts. I wholeheartedly agree that the accountability communion brings is unwelcome. We shouldn't be surprised though, it fits with the modern trend of liking the idea of accountability but disliking it when someone chastises you, liking the idea of marriage, but hating the idea of washing our wife in the Word, and liking the idea of Fatherhood, but not wanting to disciple our children. To my mind, communion is the first and frequent step of church discipline, and when practiced often and seriously, often prevents the other steps from ever having to be acted upon. Take care, Charles Randall,
Thanks for the thoughts. I wholeheartedly agree that the accountability communion brings is unwelcome. We shouldn’t be surprised though, it fits with the modern trend of liking the idea of accountability but disliking it when someone chastises you, liking the idea of marriage, but hating the idea of washing our wife in the Word, and liking the idea of Fatherhood, but not wanting to disciple our children. To my mind, communion is the first and frequent step of church discipline, and when practiced often and seriously, often prevents the other steps from ever having to be acted upon.

Take care,
Charles

]]> By: AJ http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/comment-page-1/#comment-963 AJ Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:33:44 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/#comment-963 My church also has weekly communion--and I share your sentiment that my ability to dumb it down is nearly infinite. Thinking about God's awful transcendence as well as his merciful proximity may help to appreciate more fully just what we're doing. Now that I think about it, God's power can be seen as immanent as well as transcendent--as can his mercy. So maybe my thinking needs revision at more than one place (imagine that). Thanks for the post...and the good use of Lewis. My church also has weekly communion–and I share your sentiment that my ability to dumb it down is nearly infinite. Thinking about God’s awful transcendence as well as his merciful proximity may help to appreciate more fully just what we’re doing.

Now that I think about it, God’s power can be seen as immanent as well as transcendent–as can his mercy. So maybe my thinking needs revision at more than one place (imagine that). Thanks for the post…and the good use of Lewis.

]]> By: R. Sherman http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/comment-page-1/#comment-962 R. Sherman Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:56:17 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2008/02/20/romans-9-the-awful-and-terrible-god-and-communion/#comment-962 Much to discuss here. A couple of thoughts before I head back to work. I could not agree more that the current trend toward concentrating solely upon God's love without acknowledging with reverence his power and judgment is misbegotten. Absent a judgment, there is no need for mercy. Also, I too bemoan the absence of more frequent Communion in many protestant churches. I think the reason is that the message of Communion, i.e. make sure your heart is right with Him, necessitates instruction which discomfits people. As we all know, making people comfortable is the new mantra of church growth. See, e.g. Rick Warren. I have to run. Cheers. Much to discuss here. A couple of thoughts before I head back to work.

I could not agree more that the current trend toward concentrating solely upon God’s love without acknowledging with reverence his power and judgment is misbegotten. Absent a judgment, there is no need for mercy.

Also, I too bemoan the absence of more frequent Communion in many protestant churches. I think the reason is that the message of Communion, i.e. make sure your heart is right with Him, necessitates instruction which discomfits people. As we all know, making people comfortable is the new mantra of church growth. See, e.g. Rick Warren.

I have to run.

Cheers.

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