Further musings on free will

Posted on July 9, 2007 by Charles Churchill

Last week I wrote a bit about free will and now I want to do so a little more. Specifically, I want to talk about the nature of choice.

Choice is a tricky beast, partly because it is a holistic process. The Nature vs Nurture camps can debate all they want but as far as I’m concerned the issue is settled, neither nature nor nurture can be said to reign supreme in shaping our lives (though Proverbs 22:6 does give a big nod to the effectiveness of appropriate nurture). We are as far as I can tell composite creatures, shaped by father Adam’s sin and the sin of our immediate fathers, shaped by upbringing, by knowledge and by experience, by things both physical and spiritual. We are shaped by all of these things, and coupled with the specific circumstances from moment to moment we approach every decision in our lives. And we do not possess the ability to separate these things from who we are and how we choose.

The problem is, if you accept this, then God must walk a very careful line of interacting with us, lest He tip our scales one way or another. In fact, if one were to take this seriously, the list of areas where God would not be allowed to exert His will would be incredibly large. And if He did choose to act, He would have to nudge us back towards perdition every time He did something that pushed us in the direction of redemption, lest He be accused of making our choices for us.

And this leads us to the problem of understanding the nature of choosing. How much chance has to exist that a person will choose either option for it to be properly called a choice? We know that all decisions aren’t 50/50. We know that there are many days that given the choice to live or die (and don’t we almost always have that option) there would be no thought involved, our choice is already made. “But I could have chosen death,” you say, “if I had really wanted to.” But isn’t that part of a choice? Yes, we choose what we want, but many little somethings have gone into making us into the sort of person that wants some specific thing. And how many of those little somethings bear the mark of the work of God? None? One or two? All of them?

I’m not trying to say there is no such thing as free will. I’m trying to say that we have defined it in such a way that it cannot exist with a God who wants to do any specific thing. It cannot co-exist the way we have defined it with a passage such as Romans 9.

Does that make sense?

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  • http://musingsfromthehinterland.blogspot.com R. Sherman

    I need to think a bit before I comment. But that’s an indication of a good post.

    Cheers.

  • http://musingsfromthehinterland.blogspot.com R. Sherman

    I need to think a bit before I comment. But that’s an indication of a good post.

    Cheers.

  • http://unrelatedramblings.blogspot.com Sam

    I’m afraid I don’t follow your last sentence at all; I suspect there’s something I’m missing.

    “we have defined it in such a way”

    What definition are you referring to? And, for clarity, is “we” society at large? Or some subset?

  • http://unrelatedramblings.blogspot.com Sam

    I’m afraid I don’t follow your last sentence at all; I suspect there’s something I’m missing.

    “we have defined it in such a way”

    What definition are you referring to? And, for clarity, is “we” society at large? Or some subset?

  • http://sola5.blogspot.com Quintin

    Definition of the will:
    “Desire, wish, longing; liking, inclination, disposition (to do something)”
    “An utterance of the auxiliary verb ‘will’; a determination expressed by this”
    “intr. To go astray, lose one’s way; to stray; pa. pple. gone astray, ‘lost’” (I thought this one was funny)
    http://www.oed.com
    I think the way that society has defined it is “The sovereignty of one’s self to perform whichever task or choose whatever option that is available, unhindered by external stimuli”.
    Let me just say I wish I was Jewish or Greek, the English language leaves so much to be desired (pun intended). What we struggle with is: who is ultimately sovereign? is it up to man or up to God?

    I just had a thought:

    We have to assume that whatever happens, happens according to God’s will (I am probably running the risk of living a life like Job’s). This comes from the fact that we are people who believe that God knows what he is doing better than ourselves. Does that mean that we have absolutely no choice? I don’t think so. I think the doctrine of common grace comes in quite handy here:

    Surely if God’s will is being done all the time, that which does not affect God’s will may be left to us. So therefore since we are bound in sin, but God’s will is being done, we are not as bad as we could be because of God’s common grace to us all. His will gets done no matter what our ‘choices’ are.

    Perhaps we are bound to a MINIMUM of continuing in God’s will, because we can never escape it and there is enough ‘wiggle-room’ in God’s will allowing for our accountability. This could be applied to believers and non-believers alike, since it is based on common grace. It would also explain why God allowed for Job’s life to go as it did.

    This may sound like I’m changing my tune, but I don’t think I am. There is still determinism in the universe, I’ve just added accountability.

  • http://sola5.blogspot.com Quintin

    Definition of the will:
    “Desire, wish, longing; liking, inclination, disposition (to do something)”
    “An utterance of the auxiliary verb ‘will’; a determination expressed by this”
    “intr. To go astray, lose one’s way; to stray; pa. pple. gone astray, ‘lost’” (I thought this one was funny)
    http://www.oed.com
    I think the way that society has defined it is “The sovereignty of one’s self to perform whichever task or choose whatever option that is available, unhindered by external stimuli”.
    Let me just say I wish I was Jewish or Greek, the English language leaves so much to be desired (pun intended). What we struggle with is: who is ultimately sovereign? is it up to man or up to God?

    I just had a thought:

    We have to assume that whatever happens, happens according to God’s will (I am probably running the risk of living a life like Job’s). This comes from the fact that we are people who believe that God knows what he is doing better than ourselves. Does that mean that we have absolutely no choice? I don’t think so. I think the doctrine of common grace comes in quite handy here:

    Surely if God’s will is being done all the time, that which does not affect God’s will may be left to us. So therefore since we are bound in sin, but God’s will is being done, we are not as bad as we could be because of God’s common grace to us all. His will gets done no matter what our ‘choices’ are.

    Perhaps we are bound to a MINIMUM of continuing in God’s will, because we can never escape it and there is enough ‘wiggle-room’ in God’s will allowing for our accountability. This could be applied to believers and non-believers alike, since it is based on common grace. It would also explain why God allowed for Job’s life to go as it did.

    This may sound like I’m changing my tune, but I don’t think I am. There is still determinism in the universe, I’ve just added accountability.

  • http://thepreacher.cac2.net Charles

    Sam,
    I was referring to the definition of free will from my previous post on free will. And I was using “we” to mean the set of people that defines free will in that way (and while I’ll readily admit I don’t intellectually hold to that definition, I frequently operate as if I do, which is why I don’t feel hypocritical for including myself in the group)

    Sorry for the confusion,
    Charles

  • http://thepreacher.cac2.net Charles

    Sam,
    I was referring to the definition of free will from my previous post on free will. And I was using “we” to mean the set of people that defines free will in that way (and while I’ll readily admit I don’t intellectually hold to that definition, I frequently operate as if I do, which is why I don’t feel hypocritical for including myself in the group)

    Sorry for the confusion,
    Charles

  • http://www.jamiekiley.com Jamie

    Charles: I admit, you make some good points. I think you are quite right to point out the fact that none of our choices are made in a vacuum. We do what we do because we want to do it (or because we feel obligated, or some other such reason), but there are a myriad of influences that help determine what we want and what we feel obligated to do. So it’s not like we can ever make a truly free choice, in the sense of being free from all influences.

    On the other hand, I still don’t see any way it would be possible to have free will unless there are at least two options legitimately open to us at all times. In other words, if all our wants, desires, and choices are predetermined by our previous experiences and by our personalities and by God’s nudgings, then I don’t know what “free will” might mean.

    So…I am still highly curious to understand your definition of “choice.” You say you are not denying the existence of free will, but what does it mean to you?

    Two more comments:

    In fact, if one were to take this seriously, the list of areas where God would not be allowed to exert His will would be incredibly large.

    Why rule this out? Could it not be true? The Bible often seems to imply that God waits (i.e. restrains Himself) precisely for the purpose of allowing us to work out our decisions (Rom. 2:4, among others).

    And if He did choose to act, He would have to nudge us back towards perdition every time He did something that pushed us in the direction of redemption, lest He be accused of making our choices for us.

    Not necessarily, because there are other influences (not least of all our own sinful natures) that push us the other direction.

  • http://www.jamiekiley.com Jamie

    Charles: I admit, you make some good points. I think you are quite right to point out the fact that none of our choices are made in a vacuum. We do what we do because we want to do it (or because we feel obligated, or some other such reason), but there are a myriad of influences that help determine what we want and what we feel obligated to do. So it’s not like we can ever make a truly free choice, in the sense of being free from all influences.

    On the other hand, I still don’t see any way it would be possible to have free will unless there are at least two options legitimately open to us at all times. In other words, if all our wants, desires, and choices are predetermined by our previous experiences and by our personalities and by God’s nudgings, then I don’t know what “free will” might mean.

    So…I am still highly curious to understand your definition of “choice.” You say you are not denying the existence of free will, but what does it mean to you?

    Two more comments:

    In fact, if one were to take this seriously, the list of areas where God would not be allowed to exert His will would be incredibly large.

    Why rule this out? Could it not be true? The Bible often seems to imply that God waits (i.e. restrains Himself) precisely for the purpose of allowing us to work out our decisions (Rom. 2:4, among others).

    And if He did choose to act, He would have to nudge us back towards perdition every time He did something that pushed us in the direction of redemption, lest He be accused of making our choices for us.

    Not necessarily, because there are other influences (not least of all our own sinful natures) that push us the other direction.

  • http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/ BruceA

    I’m coming late to the discussion, but in answer to your question:

    Does that make sense?

    I’m afraid my answer is, absolutely not.

    Unless you’re defining free will as acting in a moral vacuum, without benefit of any external input from any source, it simple does not follow that “God must walk a very careful line of interacting with us, lest He tip our scales one way or another.” Certainly our choices will be influenced by our environment, our temperament, other people, and even God. But ultimately we do make real, genuine choices about many things.

    I’m trying to say that we have defined it in such a way that it cannot exist with a God who wants to do any specific thing.

    Who defines free will this way, other than people who deny its existence?

  • http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/ BruceA

    I’m coming late to the discussion, but in answer to your question:

    Does that make sense?

    I’m afraid my answer is, absolutely not.

    Unless you’re defining free will as acting in a moral vacuum, without benefit of any external input from any source, it simple does not follow that “God must walk a very careful line of interacting with us, lest He tip our scales one way or another.” Certainly our choices will be influenced by our environment, our temperament, other people, and even God. But ultimately we do make real, genuine choices about many things.

    I’m trying to say that we have defined it in such a way that it cannot exist with a God who wants to do any specific thing.

    Who defines free will this way, other than people who deny its existence?

  • http://thepreacher.cac2.net Charles

    Who defines free will this way, other than people who deny its existence?

    Anyone who claims that we can always choose two opposites. Anyone who claims that man always has multiple options, or that under the same set of circumstances with the same set of information, etc that all men could choose two different things.

    But ultimately we do make real, genuine choices about many things.

    Of course we do. No one’s denying that we make choices, the question is, what is the nature of choice? You’ve already admitted that our choices are shaped by our environment, by our genetics, by the knowledge we have and the ramifications of these things iterating over time. How is that “free” will? I mean, do you really believe that after all those influences are removed, the environment, the parents, the inputs, etc, that there is some part of you that is left over that is of your own doing/making (read as: that you can take credit for)? And if not, it’s all God all along. Having said all that, we still choose, because that’s what choice means. And we are still judged for our choices, because God says that we are.

  • http://thepreacher.cac2.net Charles

    Who defines free will this way, other than people who deny its existence?

    Anyone who claims that we can always choose two opposites. Anyone who claims that man always has multiple options, or that under the same set of circumstances with the same set of information, etc that all men could choose two different things.

    But ultimately we do make real, genuine choices about many things.

    Of course we do. No one’s denying that we make choices, the question is, what is the nature of choice? You’ve already admitted that our choices are shaped by our environment, by our genetics, by the knowledge we have and the ramifications of these things iterating over time. How is that “free” will? I mean, do you really believe that after all those influences are removed, the environment, the parents, the inputs, etc, that there is some part of you that is left over that is of your own doing/making (read as: that you can take credit for)? And if not, it’s all God all along. Having said all that, we still choose, because that’s what choice means. And we are still judged for our choices, because God says that we are.

  • http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/ BruceA

    Yes, in fact, I believe that after all of the influences are removed, we do have a part of us — our will — that makes our choices. God can nudge us toward making the right choice, but we still have the ability to make that choice or to go our own way.

  • http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/ BruceA

    Yes, in fact, I believe that after all of the influences are removed, we do have a part of us — our will — that makes our choices. God can nudge us toward making the right choice, but we still have the ability to make that choice or to go our own way.

  • http://thepreacher.cac2.net Charles

    But didn’t God make this part of you? Didn’t God choose it? And what it the scriptural basis for your claim that God made some part of you that He has no control over? Romans 9 would be one of my argument for why this is not so.

  • http://thepreacher.cac2.net Charles

    But didn’t God make this part of you? Didn’t God choose it? And what it the scriptural basis for your claim that God made some part of you that He has no control over? Romans 9 would be one of my argument for why this is not so.

  • http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/ BruceA

    Pretty much the entirety of scripture is filled with examples of people acting in ways that are not in accordance with God’s will. Adam and Eve in Genesis 3, Cain and his descendents in Genesis 4, and on down the line. Either God is not in control of actions that are contrary to his will, or the phrase “God’s will” is meaningless.

    The Greek work agape means a love that is an act of the will. If we have no free will, all biblical references to agape are meaningless.

    Philippians 2:12-13, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure,” indicates that salvation is a partnership between God and us.

    In 1 Corinthians 9:26-27 and Philippians 3:12-15 Paul talks about his own responsibilities in persevering toward salvation. That’s him exercising his own will, in conjunction with God’s will.

    I’ll probably go into more detail on my own blog.

  • http://www.brucealderman.info/blog/ BruceA

    Pretty much the entirety of scripture is filled with examples of people acting in ways that are not in accordance with God’s will. Adam and Eve in Genesis 3, Cain and his descendents in Genesis 4, and on down the line. Either God is not in control of actions that are contrary to his will, or the phrase “God’s will” is meaningless.

    The Greek work agape means a love that is an act of the will. If we have no free will, all biblical references to agape are meaningless.

    Philippians 2:12-13, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure,” indicates that salvation is a partnership between God and us.

    In 1 Corinthians 9:26-27 and Philippians 3:12-15 Paul talks about his own responsibilities in persevering toward salvation. That’s him exercising his own will, in conjunction with God’s will.

    I’ll probably go into more detail on my own blog.

  • whale

    There is free will.
    If you don’t have to choose.
    Search for the equals.

  • whale

    There is free will.
    If you don’t have to choose.
    Search for the equals.

  • http://sola5.blogspot.com Quintin

    “Pretty much the entirety of scripture is filled with examples of people acting in ways that are not in accordance with God’s will.”

    Genesis 50:20

    “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today”

    Romans 8:28

    “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”

    The question of the will is so amusing for someone who is struggling with Christianity. For the Christian, it is a non-issue. If you want your free will, take it, but the very thing a Christian is, is the person who submits his will to the will of God, giving God all the glory, even for the ability to ‘choose’.

    Matthew 6:10

    “Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

    Matthew 26:42

    “Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, ‘My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.’”

  • http://sola5.blogspot.com Quintin

    “Pretty much the entirety of scripture is filled with examples of people acting in ways that are not in accordance with God’s will.”

    Genesis 50:20

    “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today”

    Romans 8:28

    “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”

    The question of the will is so amusing for someone who is struggling with Christianity. For the Christian, it is a non-issue. If you want your free will, take it, but the very thing a Christian is, is the person who submits his will to the will of God, giving God all the glory, even for the ability to ‘choose’.

    Matthew 6:10

    “Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

    Matthew 26:42

    “Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, ‘My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.’”

  • Micky

    Our moral freedom, like other mental powers, is strengthened by exercise. The practice of yielding to impulse results in enfeebling self-control. The faculty of inhibiting pressing desires, of concentrating attention on more remote goods, of reinforcing the higher but less urgent motives, undergoes a kind of atrophy by disuse.
    PEACE BE WITH YOU
    MICKY

  • Micky

    Our moral freedom, like other mental powers, is strengthened by exercise. The practice of yielding to impulse results in enfeebling self-control. The faculty of inhibiting pressing desires, of concentrating attention on more remote goods, of reinforcing the higher but less urgent motives, undergoes a kind of atrophy by disuse.
    PEACE BE WITH YOU
    MICKY

  • http://sola5.blogspot.com Quintin

    Micky,

    “In proportion as a man habitually yields to intemperance or some other vice, his freedom diminishes and he does in a true sense sink into slavery”[1]

    John 8:34-36 tells us that. The fact is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). This means our will is bound in sin and the one who has to set it free is Jesus Christ. There is no manner to which you can exercise your will out of the bondage of sin. To God be the Glory!

    [1] You see, I can also quote the Catholic encyclopedia, but I think it best to reference the source, lest I become a thief.

  • http://sola5.blogspot.com Quintin

    Micky,

    “In proportion as a man habitually yields to intemperance or some other vice, his freedom diminishes and he does in a true sense sink into slavery”[1]

    John 8:34-36 tells us that. The fact is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). This means our will is bound in sin and the one who has to set it free is Jesus Christ. There is no manner to which you can exercise your will out of the bondage of sin. To God be the Glory!

    [1] You see, I can also quote the Catholic encyclopedia, but I think it best to reference the source, lest I become a thief.