Comments on: Questions About Faith and Obedience http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/ Fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man - Ecclesiastes 12:13 Mon, 06 Feb 2012 23:07:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Charles http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-382 Charles Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:38:28 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-382 Nate, Maybe you can go into greater detail, but my understanding of obedience is that it pleases God. Would you say that someone who claims to have done something that God has commanded, but God says it was not pleasing to Him, has obeyed God? Hebrews 11:6 says that <i>Without faith it is impossible to please God</i>. The other question I would ask is this: is true obedience an act of righteousness? And if so, how do we obtain righteousness but by faith? How do you reconcile this? Nate,
Maybe you can go into greater detail, but my understanding of obedience is that it pleases God. Would you say that someone who claims to have done something that God has commanded, but God says it was not pleasing to Him, has obeyed God? Hebrews 11:6 says that Without faith it is impossible to please God. The other question I would ask is this: is true obedience an act of righteousness? And if so, how do we obtain righteousness but by faith? How do you reconcile this?

]]> By: Charles http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-1313 Charles Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:38:00 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-1313 Nate, Maybe you can go into greater detail, but my understanding of obedience is that it pleases God. Would you say that someone who claims to have done something that God has commanded, but God says it was not pleasing to Him, has obeyed God? Hebrews 11:6 says that <i>Without faith it is impossible to please God</i>. The other question I would ask is this: is true obedience an act of righteousness? And if so, how do we obtain righteousness but by faith? How do you reconcile this? Nate,
Maybe you can go into greater detail, but my understanding of obedience is that it pleases God. Would you say that someone who claims to have done something that God has commanded, but God says it was not pleasing to Him, has obeyed God? Hebrews 11:6 says that Without faith it is impossible to please God. The other question I would ask is this: is true obedience an act of righteousness? And if so, how do we obtain righteousness but by faith? How do you reconcile this?

]]> By: nate http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-379 nate Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:22:22 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-379 Just to confirm this discussion, I would say that obey means to follow a command. Obey does not have an implied correct intent. I Matthew 21:28–32 Jesus does not say anything about intent, just action (some translations say he regretted his words or his choice but none say why he regretted his choice.) Just to confirm this discussion, I would say that obey means to follow a command. Obey does not have an implied correct intent. I Matthew 21:28–32 Jesus does not say anything about intent, just action (some translations say he regretted his words or his choice but none say why he regretted his choice.)

]]> By: nate http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-1310 nate Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:22:00 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-1310 Just to confirm this discussion, I would say that obey means to follow a command. Obey does not have an implied correct intent. I Matthew 21:28–32 Jesus does not say anything about intent, just action (some translations say he regretted his words or his choice but none say why he regretted his choice.) Just to confirm this discussion, I would say that obey means to follow a command. Obey does not have an implied correct intent. I Matthew 21:28–32 Jesus does not say anything about intent, just action (some translations say he regretted his words or his choice but none say why he regretted his choice.)

]]> By: Charles http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-381 Charles Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:06:57 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-381 If the reason the son obeys his father is for anything other than because God has commanded him to, then it's not obedience. So, we don't know why he "obeys" him when he feels guilty. <i>I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing.</i> God says that without faith it is impossible to please him. If you are suggesting that obedience be expanded to include actions that do not please God, then I can accept that we obey without faith. <i>What do you make of Ariel’s point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational?</i> I agree with Ariel. I think faith is regardless of comprehension. And I believe that faith is the basis for behaving rationally. Or to be more specific, the world will not call it rational, they will call it foolish, but it is true rationality. These are the verses that come to mind: <i>(1Co 1:18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1Co 1:21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1Co 1:23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1Co 1:25) Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. </i> If the reason the son obeys his father is for anything other than because God has commanded him to, then it’s not obedience. So, we don’t know why he “obeys” him when he feels guilty.

I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing.

God says that without faith it is impossible to please him. If you are suggesting that obedience be expanded to include actions that do not please God, then I can accept that we obey without faith.

What do you make of Ariel’s point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational?

I agree with Ariel. I think faith is regardless of comprehension. And I believe that faith is the basis for behaving rationally. Or to be more specific, the world will not call it rational, they will call it foolish, but it is true rationality. These are the verses that come to mind:

(1Co 1:18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

(1Co 1:21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

(1Co 1:23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

(1Co 1:25) Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

(1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(1Co 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

]]> By: Charles http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-1312 Charles Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:06:00 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-1312 If the reason the son obeys his father is for anything other than because God has commanded him to, then it's not obedience. So, we don't know why he "obeys" him when he feels guilty. <i>I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing.</i> God says that without faith it is impossible to please him. If you are suggesting that obedience be expanded to include actions that do not please God, then I can accept that we obey without faith. <i>What do you make of Ariel’s point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational?</i> I agree with Ariel. I think faith is regardless of comprehension. And I believe that faith is the basis for behaving rationally. Or to be more specific, the world will not call it rational, they will call it foolish, but it is true rationality. These are the verses that come to mind: <i>(1Co 1:18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1Co 1:21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1Co 1:23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1Co 1:25) Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. </i> If the reason the son obeys his father is for anything other than because God has commanded him to, then it’s not obedience. So, we don’t know why he “obeys” him when he feels guilty.

I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing.

God says that without faith it is impossible to please him. If you are suggesting that obedience be expanded to include actions that do not please God, then I can accept that we obey without faith.

What do you make of Ariel’s point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational?

I agree with Ariel. I think faith is regardless of comprehension. And I believe that faith is the basis for behaving rationally. Or to be more specific, the world will not call it rational, they will call it foolish, but it is true rationality. These are the verses that come to mind:

(1Co 1:18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

(1Co 1:21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

(1Co 1:23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

(1Co 1:25) Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

(1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(1Co 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

]]> By: nate http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-380 nate Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:04:22 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-380 Charles, Let me add a forth bit to the story, <i>A month later the father calls him again. I have another piece of property he says, and it’s value is high, sell it for me and set the money by as well. My father is losing it, thinks the son, there is a development coming in near this parcel of land and in the next few years it’s price will triple. He explains this to his father and they have a 3 hour argument. Finally the son storms out of the house and says, "I will never betray my mother by selling this land so cheaply. A few days the son feels guilty for disobeying his father before, so he sells the land. </i> Is this an example of having faith in his father? Jesus suggested it was an example of obeying the father. I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing. What do you make of Ariel's point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational? Charles,

Let me add a forth bit to the story,

A month later the father calls him again. I have another piece of property he says, and it’s value is high, sell it for me and set the money by as well. My father is losing it, thinks the son, there is a development coming in near this parcel of land and in the next few years it’s price will triple. He explains this to his father and they have a 3 hour argument. Finally the son storms out of the house and says, “I will never betray my mother by selling this land so cheaply. A few days the son feels guilty for disobeying his father before, so he sells the land.

Is this an example of having faith in his father? Jesus suggested it was an example of obeying the father. I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing.

What do you make of Ariel’s point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational?

]]> By: nate http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-1311 nate Fri, 12 Jan 2007 03:04:00 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-1311 Charles, Let me add a forth bit to the story, <i>A month later the father calls him again. I have another piece of property he says, and it’s value is high, sell it for me and set the money by as well. My father is losing it, thinks the son, there is a development coming in near this parcel of land and in the next few years it’s price will triple. He explains this to his father and they have a 3 hour argument. Finally the son storms out of the house and says, "I will never betray my mother by selling this land so cheaply. A few days the son feels guilty for disobeying his father before, so he sells the land. </i> Is this an example of having faith in his father? Jesus suggested it was an example of obeying the father. I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing. What do you make of Ariel's point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational? Charles,

Let me add a forth bit to the story,

A month later the father calls him again. I have another piece of property he says, and it’s value is high, sell it for me and set the money by as well. My father is losing it, thinks the son, there is a development coming in near this parcel of land and in the next few years it’s price will triple. He explains this to his father and they have a 3 hour argument. Finally the son storms out of the house and says, “I will never betray my mother by selling this land so cheaply. A few days the son feels guilty for disobeying his father before, so he sells the land.

Is this an example of having faith in his father? Jesus suggested it was an example of obeying the father. I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing.

What do you make of Ariel’s point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational?

]]> By: Charles http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-378 Charles Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:39:30 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-378 Ariel, While I don't think agreement removes the validity of faith, action caused solely by agreement and terminated upon disagreement with authority is clearly not obedience. My take on the story is that the son was never obeying, not because he agreed, but because the moment he disagreed, his "obedience" ended. Clearly it's just a story and too much could be read into it, but I think it's still telling. Thanks for the read and the comment, Charles Ariel,
While I don’t think agreement removes the validity of faith, action caused solely by agreement and terminated upon disagreement with authority is clearly not obedience. My take on the story is that the son was never obeying, not because he agreed, but because the moment he disagreed, his “obedience” ended. Clearly it’s just a story and too much could be read into it, but I think it’s still telling.

Thanks for the read and the comment,
Charles

]]> By: Charles http://thepreacher.cac2.net/2007/01/05/questions-about-faith-and-obedience/comment-page-1/#comment-1309 Charles Sat, 06 Jan 2007 22:39:00 +0000 http://thepreacher.cac2.net/?p=26#comment-1309 Ariel, While I don't think agreement removes the validity of faith, action caused solely by agreement and terminated upon disagreement with authority is clearly not obedience. My take on the story is that the son was never obeying, not because he agreed, but because the moment he disagreed, his "obedience" ended. Clearly it's just a story and too much could be read into it, but I think it's still telling. Thanks for the read and the comment, Charles Ariel,
While I don’t think agreement removes the validity of faith, action caused solely by agreement and terminated upon disagreement with authority is clearly not obedience. My take on the story is that the son was never obeying, not because he agreed, but because the moment he disagreed, his “obedience” ended. Clearly it’s just a story and too much could be read into it, but I think it’s still telling.

Thanks for the read and the comment,
Charles

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