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Questions About Faith and Obedience

2007 January 5
by Charles Churchill

Over at Bittersweet Life, Ariel is conducting a little quiz on faith. I have a few questions of my own. Consider this story:

A man calls his son and says to him: Son, I am getting old and I will die soon. One of your mother’s greatest pleasures is sitting in her chair on the porch and watching the sunset. The porch is falling in, so I want you to withdraw some money from my account and have the porch fixed. The son is touch and impressed by his father’s concern for his mother. This is thoughtful thinks the son, and so he withdraws the money. The next month the father calls the son again. I will die soon says the man and I want your mother to be well cared for. I have a piece of property which is at its peak in value. Sell it for me and put the money by so that your mother will be taken care of. My father is wise, thinks the son, for that property is indeed at its peak, and it is well that my mother should be takes care of. And so he sells the property. A month later the father calls him again. I have another piece of property he says, and it’s value is high, sell it for me and set the money by as well. My father is losing it, thinks the son, there is a development coming in near this parcel of land and in the next few years it’s price will triple. And he does not sell the land.

At what point was the son obedient to his father? At what point did he show faith? Did he at any point disobey or show a lack of faith? I’ll weigh in later, but I’m looking for your thoughts…

  • Nate,
    Maybe you can go into greater detail, but my understanding of obedience is that it pleases God. Would you say that someone who claims to have done something that God has commanded, but God says it was not pleasing to Him, has obeyed God? Hebrews 11:6 says that Without faith it is impossible to please God. The other question I would ask is this: is true obedience an act of righteousness? And if so, how do we obtain righteousness but by faith? How do you reconcile this?
  • Just to confirm this discussion, I would say that obey means to follow a command. Obey does not have an implied correct intent. I Matthew 21:28–32 Jesus does not say anything about intent, just action (some translations say he regretted his words or his choice but none say why he regretted his choice.)
  • If the reason the son obeys his father is for anything other than because God has commanded him to, then it's not obedience. So, we don't know why he "obeys" him when he feels guilty.

    I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing.

    God says that without faith it is impossible to please him. If you are suggesting that obedience be expanded to include actions that do not please God, then I can accept that we obey without faith.

    What do you make of Ariel’s point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational?

    I agree with Ariel. I think faith is regardless of comprehension. And I believe that faith is the basis for behaving rationally. Or to be more specific, the world will not call it rational, they will call it foolish, but it is true rationality. These are the verses that come to mind:

    (1Co 1:18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    (1Co 1:21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    (1Co 1:23) But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

    (1Co 1:25) Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    (1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    (1Co 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
  • Charles,

    Let me add a forth bit to the story,

    A month later the father calls him again. I have another piece of property he says, and it’s value is high, sell it for me and set the money by as well. My father is losing it, thinks the son, there is a development coming in near this parcel of land and in the next few years it’s price will triple. He explains this to his father and they have a 3 hour argument. Finally the son storms out of the house and says, "I will never betray my mother by selling this land so cheaply. A few days the son feels guilty for disobeying his father before, so he sells the land.

    Is this an example of having faith in his father? Jesus suggested it was an example of obeying the father. I would say having faith and obeying are not always the same thing.

    What do you make of Ariel's point that sometimes faith happens without comprehension? Is that faith that is not rational?
  • Ariel,
    While I don't think agreement removes the validity of faith, action caused solely by agreement and terminated upon disagreement with authority is clearly not obedience. My take on the story is that the son was never obeying, not because he agreed, but because the moment he disagreed, his "obedience" ended. Clearly it's just a story and too much could be read into it, but I think it's still telling.

    Thanks for the read and the comment,
    Charles
  • Your question is tricky...and not only because, this side of heaven, the lines between faith and motive can be blurry. I'm tempted to say that only in the first instance did the son exercise faith - and yet, that occasion could be hypothetically discounted because the son was "touched" by his father's intention.

    Does agreement, both rational and heartfelt, on our part, remove the validity of faith? I don't believe so. Often God is kind enough the command us to do things to which our hearts and minds assent. Certainly the great commands of God have this mysterious property...follow them, and you become convinced of their veracity.

    Perhaps the crucial question has to do with sequence. Where does obedience enter the picture? Does it precede understanding, or does it follow?

    Obedience to the Father should never be at the mercy of mental comprehension. Just look at Abraham and Isaac.
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