The Equation of Love

Ariel I didn't quite understand that. sorry.

Made up my mind? Kinda. But not absolutely. This is why I like to ask questions. Charles, I suspect Jesus was a wandering Prophet. I think there may have been a few of them at the time. Jesus appeared to grab the imagination of people of the day and he was eventually murdered by the Roman Government. I have not been able to uncover other evidence to point any kind of different picture. Can you help me?

Ivan,
Most of these things that you ask about are only worth discussing once you've settled other things. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't believe that the Bible is the inerrant, inspired Word of God. The central thing for you to determine is who is Jesus Christ, and once you have decided that, the rest of these issues are easy to deal with. I suspect you've already made up your mind.

Charles

I think that comparing us to a “child” is just another way of saying “I will not investigate because I am comfortable in my ignorance.

All the children I have met combine an admirable capacity for trust with a remarkable curiosity about things they don't know, even about things they can't know. And that is just the point. Curiosity and trust are not mutually exclusive, and in healthy minds they are not. Chalk one up for the "children."

Charles,

One more question. When the crucifixion event was over, What happened to all the disciples? Did they all go their separate ways? If so, Why don't you think they would have remained together?
Also, From what documents were the Gospels taken from? Does anyone have any idea there true age? (The original copies)


Ivan

Charles,

Can you explain this to me: You mention that sin and death had to be defeated, hence I guess the crucifixion story. Did it work? Why don't people live forever OT style? It must have then defeated Sin once and for all.. do we still sin? God was in charge at all times, so the barbarism of the death of Jesus ultimately rests with God doesn't it? After the fact of Jesus sacrifice, what came out of it as good? We are exactly the same in character are we not? We still get judged and may go to hell right? Why punish Adam so darn long after the event? Why not punish the individual rather than all humanity forever? Why punish of all people in the world Jesus? And biggest question for me: Adam disobeyed with everything in his favour.. he was a baby almost. Innocent beyond belief. He was tricked by a slightly lesser God than God himself.. How can a "just" God punish humanity forever for the one instance, the most innocent man on Earth was tricked by a God no less. Can you help me understand this better Charles?

Ivan

Hi there Ariel and Charles,
CHarles do you beleive the Adam and Eve story literally?

Ariel you said: God is smarter than us.. I say he would need to be.
He is not interested in opinion polls: I say, we don't know that. He certainly has opinions and certainly has a code for human life to behave.
We don't fully understand Gods mind: This is said a lot somewhat but its not entirely true. We are making huge advances this century in understanding nature, which is in essence Gods mind. But as far as Gods actions are concerned, these still refuse to make any kind of sane sense. Particularly, if we only take the bible as our evidence source (Which I don't think we ought to.) personal opinion. I think that comparing us to a "child" is just another way of saying "I will not investigate because I am comfortable in my ignorance.

Ivan,
I think primitive is the perfect description in the sense that the word primitive means first, primordial, or even foundational. You mentioned in another thread that you were present at the birth of your daughter and that you thought it a profound experience. There is nothing modern about childbirth, nothing that can separate it from being an exercise involving blood and a proximity to death. What happened with Adam was that sin and death came into the world, and so sin and death had to be defeated. The crucifixion was primitive, it was basic, it was foundational; technology could not save man, nor could human ingenuity. In a sense, because Adam disobeyed when he had everything in his favor, then Christ must be obedient unto death with all the world of sin against him. Christ's death was barbaric because we were barbarians, it was glorious because he was and is, God.

I really appreciate you stopping by here and I've really appreciated the discussion so far. Feel free to drop by anytime.

Charles Churchill

This is what your God is capable of. Yet, the best plan he could summon forth was to slaughter someone in sacrifice? It doesn’t make sense to my mind. It sounds like an “invention” of very primitive man.

You wouldn't be the only one to think this, Ivan. Back in the first century, Paul wrote:

"We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Corinthians 1:23-25)

Clearly the perplexity, anger and skepticism the cross provokes today is not unique to postmodern culture. Bart Campolo, the son a prominent Christian leader, recently went on record, saying, "I will not worship any God who is not at least as compassionate as I am." How sensitive and enlightened...and ultimately, how self-defeating.

Here are a few implications that come to mind:
1) God is smarter than us.
2) He's not interested in opinion polls.
3) We don't fully understand God's mind.
4) If we did, he wouldn't be God.

I think this conversation is headed into the realm of what the Bible calls "faith." It's far from blind - but where God's mind is concerned, it learns to content itself with not being God, but being his child.

Dear Charles,

You have quite a famous surname sir! Your explanation is a good one and I self admit to being a bit thick. The Bible speaks a lot about how God wishes us to be and behave. He set standards and rules. God is very human because were apparently made in his image. The trouble I have is with the unfolding plan. Plenty of people in the world see it as grand and miraculous . The trouble is, I see it as unnecessary and strange. What I mean is, Have you a telescope? or Have you ever gone online to the Hubble telescope page and looked at the imagery recently? This is what your God is capable of. Yet, the best plan he could summon forth was to slaughter someone in sacrifice? It doesn't make sense to my mind. It sounds like an "invention" of very primitive man.

Ivan

Ivan,
Sorry for the delay in replying to you, I was out of town all day yesterday.

You said:
I just wanted to ask something silly. Why did God have to send his son to die by “cruel and hateful men”?

I think the answer here, is that He didn't. People often think of Christ as the answer to some external problem, and to us, He is. But to God, this was His plan all along. Anything else is madness. To think that God was surprised by man's sin, or that He had to sit and think of a solution is foolishness. The best way I can think of it is this: the History of the World from its beginning to its end is the story that Jehovah wanted to tell. And everything is made to tell that story. If Christ was not coming to die and shed his blood, there would have been no need for us to have or know of blood at all. If God did not want us to understand Him as a Father, he would not have made us to have sons. This very world is framed by words, and every word is chosen to show God's glory. God did not have to do things this way. But He did. And He alone, IS. What we do with Him and His Son, will be of more than passing interest. It will shape our eternity.

Thanks for coming by Ivan. If I haven't answered your questions (I fear that may be the case) ask them again. Sometimes I need to be hit with a stick a few times to get the point.

Best,
Charles Churchill

I just wanted to ask something silly. Why did God have to send his son to die by "cruel and hateful men"? I know that Jesus was sacrificed so that man as a whole didn't need to be punished, but there are a few things I don't get.
Why kill the one example of a sinless person?
Why at the end of the day, still punish men at judgement time?
Wouldn't it have been a whole lot easier, to speak to mankind in a single Godly voice from the beginning and have them, then sure to do the right thing by God?
Isn't having a "human sacrifice" a bit barbaric and inefficient to makes ones will known (for a God)?